Why Does a Loving God Allow Pain and Suffering
75One of the hardest truths to understand about God is why He allows pain and suffering. Many are opposed to the Word, because of the false image that he is a punishing, vengeful God. That is not at all who He is, He is a God of love, hope, and peace. Many will argue, if he is a God with these traits, why is our world such a hateful, hopeless, chaotic mess. Each person will find different areas of this world to blame God for, and cause misgivings about God. One person may struggle with why Grandma suffers from Alzheimer, where as another struggles with why there are people who experience schizophrenia, or how could God allow a young girl to be raped, a child to be abused, a parent to lose a child? For several years, I struggled with these questions. In fact, during one of my harder moments, I wrote a really honest revealing blurb about my feelings on this topic. Since then, I have come to an understanding and an acceptance that took me many years to come to. In fact it wasn't until I reached this understanding that I truly became a Christian.
Faith Like Job
Job is probably one of the best examples of someone who knew God as a loving God, despite hurt, pain, illness, affliction, loss, and tragedy. Even with those around Job, criticizing Him, and accusing God of bestowing this great punishment on Job, Job never lost faith in Christ. Although, when reading the book Job, one needs to be careful of misunderstanding the true words of wisdom, and the words of foolish men. It's quoted in Job, "You talk like a foolish woman. Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?” Job 2:10 The amazing thing about this statement is that God did NOT choose the specifics of Job's misery, Satan did. But Job endured all of this with a faithful heart, and a love for God. He became mad, but He accepted that God knew what was best. He did not lose faith, just because God chose not to reveal the reasons for this.
In fact, God never once tried explaining to Job why he went through everything he did, yet Job accepted his plight. He was faithful, because he trusted that God loved him and knew more than he did. He understood that God is a sovereign God. He is in control. He would only allow what would be the best for the world as a whole. Who are we to judge God? We are mere humans on this vast world, we have no way of knowing God's ultimate plan, except through what he has placed in His Word. We should all be like Job and learn that just because things are going bad, does not mean that God is punishing us, or that it is in fact God doing the harm upon us. He is merely allowing the pain in the first place.
How Could A Loving God Allow Pain?
Unfortunately, most of us are not born with faith like Job's. See, Satan knew that Job had a tremendous amount of faith, but Satan felt he could break down Job's faith through mere tragedy. It did not work. So we are left to ask questions like "How could a loving God allow rape, murder, mutilation, starvation? If He allows this, is he truly loving?"
The short answer is yes. He is loving. We may not understand why something has happened, but he uses all things for His good. He gave us free-will, because he wanted to feel the joy of us coming to Him on our own. When we do that, He gets to experience our tremendous love for Him and our willingness to come to Him out of faith, love and devotion. Although, He takes a risk in giving us free will. For one, He also gets hurt because many of us make very unwise, harmful decisions that hurt God, and that hurt our fellow man. God knew this was a risk of allowing us to have free will. All people will hurt others in some way, for we are all sinners. Some of us are more severe, others less severe.
To the rapist, murderer, etc, don't worry, they will not go unpunished. Either punished in this world or
the next. And yes, God allows the rapist to rape, the murderer to murder, and the liar to lie. Just because God allows it to happen, does not mean that he does not hurt with us as we go through these problems. His pain is tremendous, as he watches us hurt. He tries to comfort us, but we have to be willing to accept his comfort. He uses others, He uses circumstances, He uses a vast many things, but often we reject the things He sends.
Some may argue that if God wanted to give us free will, couldn't He have made it so we didn't hurt one another. One thing you need to understand is that when God gave us free will, He gave us free will in everything. If He limited what we could do so we couldn't hurt others, then it wouldn't be free will. He either can give us free will, or limit how we can affect others. He can't do both. If God chose to not allow others to kill each other, or not allow people to do many atrocities, then we would not truly have free will.
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Why Does a Loving God Allow Pain and Suffering
Accepting Life's Circumstances From A Christian's Perspective
God's Will Is Too Hard For Us to Understand
Truth is, we are given free will, but what about the other things like severe deadly weather, or diseases. Why would God allow these. He can control these things .First, you must understand that God placed things in motion. By not allowing a hurricane, there are other things on Earth that would not do well. For instance, if God chose not to allow any more hurricanes, this might have a severe effect on the Earth's ability to regulate its temperature, or ability to redistribute rainfall as God intended. There are so many things that each of these things do, that would affect our world catastrophically if God were to stop.
Think about Forest Fires. Did you know that in forests, often people will actually set controlled forest fires to burn off certain parts of the forest. The reason for this is because they understand the necessity of forest fires. When an area is burnt down, it allows for the forest to grow healthier. Without these necessary fires the wilderness would become overrun with certain vegetation destroying others. The fires allow an equilibrium to be reached in the forest. Before there were men to set these fires, God knew that it was important that fires occur naturally in the woods on occasion; therefore, He allowed them to happen, despite the great damage that can occur.
Some Things We Will Never Understand
Another argument may be that He is all powerful, so why can't he just make weather good, not bad. Or why can't he make our bodies fully healthy without disease. I believe you must accept that there are somethings we will never understand.
We, mere mortals, are unable to understand God to His full extent. Lee Strobel quoted a story told by someone else about a bear. He started by telling the story from the bears perspective: The bear was walking along and got caught in a trap. The bear was wailing and tugging, the more he tugged the worse his hand felt. Then all of the sudden, the bear sees a hunter with a gun! The bear growls and swipes at him. He becomes madder and madder as this man gets closesr. Then all of the sudden the hunter lifts his rifle and shoots the gun at the bear. The bear jumps as he hears the bang, moments before he feels tremendous pain. His vision becomes black.
Horrible from the bear's perspective right?
Well, let's look at it from the hunters perspective. The man hears a big wailing in the woods behind his house. When he sees that the wailing is coming from a bear stuck in a trap, he runs inside his house to grab his gun. He gets closer and closer to the bear, to make sure that the aim is perfect, until he knows he can shoot the bear in just the right spot. Then bang. He waits a moment as the bear slowly drifts asleep. Once he knows the bear is asleep, he pushes the bears foot into the trap further, until the trap releases. He dresses the wound, then pulls the dart from the bears side. The one that came out of his gun. He leaves the bear lying, so that way when the bear awakes he will be able to go back home.
When the bear awakes, his paw is sore, but will eventually heal just fine. The hunter wasn't out to hurt the bear, he was out to help. But the bear does not know enough about humans in order to understand the human. Just like we don't understand God enough to know why He does things. We are not God, and bears are not humans. Sometimes God has to allow pain in order to help us.
What about the People Who Have Never Heard of God?
Then what about this business of being saved? What about the people who have never heard of Jesus Christ? How can they be saved? How could a loving God make it impossible for some men to make it to Heaven?
Should ignorance be a damning problem, well, let's take a look at people who have never heard of God. The bible states that God has revealed himself to each and everyone of us. They may have never heard of God by the name we have, but He reveals Himself no matter where we are. I am cautious to word it this way, because I don't want you believing that I think all people who have some sort of faith will go to heaven. The bottom line is, we need to recognize that we are sinners, we need to be forgiven for those transgressions, and we need to come to a point where we realize we need help outside of ourselves in order to be forgiven. Although someone has never heard of Jesus Christ, they may come to this realization. God is revealing Himself to them, by showing them they need to reach out to something beyond themselves to attain that forgiveness. Unfortunately, many of us are too stubborn to get to that point. We want to believe that we are good enough on merits alone. Of course we are not, we are human. We need Jesus and we need to be forgiven. God reveals Himself to everyone, it's our choice to be with Him or not. Those who do not get to hear the gospel, they can still be saved by listening to God when He speaks to them. By realizing they are sinners, they need to be forgiven, and they need God's help.
So do others who choose not to believe go to Hell? Well, yes. If you choose not to be with God here on Earth, turn your back on Him, be too prideful to admit that you need God, then when you die, you will be separated from God in death. That is essentially what Hell is. Hell is a complete separation from God, and that is what we are choosing when we choose not to believe that we are sinners who need to be forgiven and that Jesus blood can do that for us.
Bottom line is that the gospel will prevail regardless if people accept it or not. It is often hard for a believer to hear opposition to the gospel because it is the most important truth we will ever hear. We don't know why He does the things He does, but He does things all for His glory. We cannot see the grand scheme of life from an all powerful perspective, because we are not all powerful, all-knowing, or any of the such. God is, and we need to trust Him.
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Thank you! I know I will or I try anyway.
love from of God hub great god speed thanks
Thank you very much!
Hi Angela,
I have finally caught up with you.
I apologise for the delay, but I have recently spent a few days in the hospital, and I seem to be doing that a lot lately and it is making it hard to keep up the chats with everyone. My illness is starting to take more of a hold and making it harder to do just the usual every day things.
I see you and I have had ulcerative colitis. I also had a small segment of Crohns Disease, which is horrible also. I get the occasional break out of that too and makes me very sick at the time, usually with an obstruction. I try not to feel sorry for myself, but as you probably know , that is not the case, because you feel like the whole of your life is just the pitts and you want to curl up and just go to sleep and never wake up.
If you would like to talk more about what we are going through, that would be great. I would rather do it on the private line if that is all right with you. So give me an e mail and we can compare notes so to speak.
Please send me an e mail Angela as I would love to talk further with you. Love Beautybabe Pam.
Anglea,
It isn't about God allowing pain and suffering. You mentioned earlier in your writing that God has given mankind free will not only that God has sent is son to earth to be example of how a Christian should live and can love, plus God have gift man the bible so that we could understand at least partially the mind of God.
Since God doesn't play games when he said we are free then that's what he means we are free to create a paradise on this planet with love and understand BUT we are also free to lie, cheat, steal, kill murder and do all sorts of evils so this isn't the work of God and if God did tamper with that free he gave us there is no doubt someone would be complaining that we aren't really free because God won't allow...boohoo boohoo.
I will Beautybabe. As for others I have spoken to many people in similar situations if you ever need to talk, just email me as well.
I can see your perspective, but there are things that happen to us that have nothing to do with our own individual free will such as disease, deformity, death. I think these are the things most people question.
Angela,
When Adam & Eve sinned evil came into the world and yes that evil ment not mankind will have to suffer for this sin. As one who is under the same curse as everyone else I don't like it still there is nothing I can do about it and had Adam & Eve did what they did then who knows how much better live would have been for us all. Still God has decided not to wipe us out completely but to give us a chance at a second life, a glorious life where we will never have to suffer again and evil will not even be a memory in this new age.
Spanstar, very true, it is sad the consequence we all have to suffer, but we all also sin as well, and in Adam and Eve's shoes, I'm sure each of us would have succombed to the temptation as well. It was part of God's will for us. I am excited for the world God has for us.
angela_michelle,
Col. 3 says set your mind on things above...for you have died and your life is now hidden in Christ. What a wonderful hiding place He is! I see here in your writing that you are setting your mind on things above and I say press on! keep looking up!
CS
CS Thanks so much for the wonderful encouragement. I try hard, and I am always happier when I do. Sometimes when I start thinking too much of the stuff here on earth like bills, work worries, etc, then I start feeling down. But he helps me overcome everything.
Good day.
According to the holy Writings [Bible], the original intention of Almighty Jehovah/ Yahweh, was for the earth to be inhabited with perfect mankind living without needs, in harmony, in a global paradise.
This was temporarily, delayed, because of the INTERVENTION
of a rebel angel, who made himself Satan [Adversary/ Resister].
Satan charged, that God was being unreasonable, to not allow man to choose what was right or wrong for himself.
He claimed that the promised penalty of death was a lie, and all this resulted in man being placed outside of God's
protective care.
In the meantime, man has tried various forms of governments
but ALL have proven to be unable to solve man's many
problems, but rather, added to them.
Satan's further charges have been proven to be misguided and a lie also [Job 2:4, 5].
Soon Yahweh/ Jehovah will put an END to all this, since His
Son, Jesus the Christ, has paid the ransom price [a perfect
human life ; 1 Cor 15:45], and remained faithful and obedient as far as death.
Deu 32 NW
4 The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he.
5 They have acted ruinously on their own part;
They are not his children, the defect is their own.
A generation crooked and twisted!
So, then, man's independent slant, and unforseen occurrences
as time advances result in suferring, pain, and death.
Romans 5:12, 6:23
I think He's an amazing loving God that He was willing to show Satan the hard way how life for mankind would be if we sinned. It also shows how patient He is. The way He has allowed us to stay here for so long, although He has proven His point, centuries ago.
Centuries ago, neither you, nor I, would have been.
Very True
I really like this hub. I am a true believer in Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I lost my daughter in 2008 unexpectedly. It was such a shock to me and her children.But I thank the Lord for the 33 years he allowed me to be with her. I am now raising her 4 daughters. We feel we are very blessed to have each other.
That is incredibly sad, and yet beautiful. I'm so glad you are blessed with her four daughters, they will be able to hear stories about their mother, that they wouldn't have gotten to if they had lived with someone else. I keep my daughter who I adopted in her biological aunt's, cousin's, and grandparent's life so that she will know that part of her history, even though she is not mine biologically.
This is a subject matter that often divides followers of Christ. It is also one that non believers use to "prove" there is no God. Hat's off for tackling such an issue so deftly.
I am astounded at the fact we were all warned that there is an enemy who came to steal kill and destroy yet so many put the blame on the lover of our souls. The one who warned us of this enemy. Do we not think that this enemy actually steals kills and destroys? Look around. I read 1 comment up from mine posted by maewallace22 and there is proof right there. My prayers are with you dear lady, and for the grand daughters you are raising.
Yes, maewallace is a true inspiration. Thank you so much for your input. It is so true, we were warned of the enemy who was going to seek to steal, kill and destroy, and yet we choose to blame God instead. It's much like the adult child who grows up and blames her parents for the way their life turned out, and do not take responsibility for their own life. Our parents only take us so far, we take ourselves the rest of the way. God will guide us and direct us, but we must make the wise choices. There will be sadness, pain, and yes suffering even if we live a blameless life, but it's not God who has turned his back.
Angela. Good job. I really loved the way you showed the transition of this article from the start to end.
keep it going.
Thanks for the hub.
Thanks sree 1987! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Greetings Sister and thanks expecially for your closing comments.. the gospel will prevail !!!
I think Solomon put it best when he said that man's life is actually simple.. We are created in God's image, therefore even as we send our kids from a place of innocence to public school our Heavenly Father does and is doing the same for us. That school being the knowledge of both good and evil.. It's a tough lesson,but the most important one.. One in which no stone is left unturned. In due time all of God's children will abhor evil, which is our first lesson to be learned. Little children we are being trained by the Father of us all, who will reedem us all, even as any good parent would.. Therefore Peace to all.. :0) for God is Love and has sent forth his Son to show us the way in his Kingdom to come, that kingdom in which all men will recieve the counsel of our very own Lord and Savior Jesus middle name yet to be revealed Christ.. :0). We've got a really good God, just remember that we've been left to our own devices for the time being.. and oh what a mess we've made even as children will do when their parent turn their head for a time.. Love to all in that great name.. :0).. he who will reconcile all things back to God.. :0).. and that's the good news of the Gospel !!
It is so true. We are just as we were children. Although instead of our earthly parent leaving the room, it's our heavenly father who we forget is watching. It's funny, the kids I watch often forget I can hear them. I think too often we forget God is there too. He can hear us, our thoughts, our words, and see all we do.
Do people who live in tribes in the Amazon jungle, who have never had contact with the outside world and have never heard of Christ go to heaven when they die? Or do they go to hell for worshiping false idols of their ancestors, trees or nature?
If they go to heaven without having accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior, then there is no reason or use for the gospel.
If they go to hell for no fault of their own ,except to be born in a tribe in the middle of the jungle with no contact with the outside world, then how is that "just"?
In the bible, which I believe is inspired by God, it says that He reveals himself to everyone, and each person chooses to accept Him or deny them. Just because they have not heard the name Jesus Christ, does not mean that God did not reveal Himself to them. God is a just God, and I believe He will treat each person through the knowledge they are given.
One thing to understand about Hell is it a place that is completely separated from God. We choose on earth whether we want to be with God or separated from Him. In the afterlife, we are given where we chose before. Is it a fiery pit. Honestly, I don't know, but if it is meant to be symbolic, then I believe He may be referring to the feeling of being separated from God that it would be like in a fire.
I think non-Christians and some people who say they are Christians view the Christian God as a God who condemns and hates. He is neither of these things. He is full of love, giving blessings to us, allowing freedom. Our hardships are often consequences of our choices. There are some things that are not, and just part of life, but are consequences of those generations before us who made some bad decisions. These are not consequences God gives us, but consequences we give ourselves or even the children after us.
For 43 years of my life, I was bitter about the losses in my experience and didn't even know it! God rescued me from unbelief when I was 16, but my 3-year-old brother died from leukemia when I was a couple months old, I grew up in a dysfunctional family (very lonely), and our second son died from leukemia when he was 4 1/2 years old. As a result, I experienced 7 years of depression (1979-1986).
Finally, I had to retire from being a pastor because of my depression and sought psychological help. God broke through to me by using Christian psychiatrists, psychologists, and therapists to teach me that I was very angry at God and people.
You mention Job. I identify with him because, like him, God had given me faith, but I was also angry at him for allowing all of those losses in my life. He didn't cause them but permitted them in love to teach me his fatherly lessons. Just look at Job 3 and 10; Job was angry at God as well as his so-called "friends," who preached down at him.
I also was angry. Just as Job and the psalmists expressed their complaints to God in prayer (look at Psalms 6, 39, 88, and Habakkuk), he broke through to enable me to grieve with tears in prayer for 7 1/2 months until the depression left. In one more month God's peace that transcends understanding arrived in my life (Philippians 4:6,7). The burden of lifelong bitterness at God and other people disappeared! God set me free!
Since then, every time depression crept back into my life, I asked God what I was angry at him about (chronic pain, daily migraines), I again persistently prayed by just sharing my feelings of anxiety and anger openly and honestly with tears, while confessing my self-centeredness in wanting my plan, not God's permissive plan, for my life. Each time God gave me peace to submit to his plan. Then, he gave me his means for relief from those trials.
He is a loving Father who has taught me much through his Word, the Bible, and life's experiences.
I do recall when Job was angry at God. Thank you so much for your testimony. Your testimony really enriches my article, and I hope those feeling the way you did, will come across your response, and find comfort that they are not alone.
A truly great hub! God never said it would be easy, just that He is there for us, to comfort and give strength. Our darn human mind is the worst of stumbling blocks. Keep writing, this was a good read.
Thanks lindajot. And yes, you are so right, our human minds are definitely the worst of our stumbling blocks!!!
Many words of wisdom Angela thanks for this writing
Thanks for the great compliment Nichole~
Hello angela-Michelle.
Nice Hub,you know we all asked rhe same questions when we been young , why people dies??why people get diseases???why people get old???why???why???
we use to think that God is not fair,But when we became more mature and responsible in life ,we learned the religion, then we realized that the problem is us and no one else. God created us,taught us,handled us scriptures, sent to us prophets to guide us and gave us free will to choose,so if we choose to use drugs for example why should we blame God for that??the same thing for rape,if our daughters aren't wearing respectful dresses and been on the street or clubbing after midnights,why should we blame men for doing such...or God for allowing such.....it us to blame at first place .cause if we followed Lord commandments,non of these would of happened.
thanks any way for bringing this subject/nice hub
Thanks for your insight. What you spoke is very true. :)
It's a very nice idea, helping such people to understand about those things that they find hard to understand WHY?Especially if how do God manage us, the others having much while the other one don't have any...MAY GOD BLESS YOU........
Thank you Ochie!
Hi Angela Michelle!
Very nice page. I like the bear story you used and it is a good analogy of those that refuse to trust God and just get worse in the process, hurting themselves all along.
We will not understand everything in this world.As long as we know the love of God in Jesus and that he will and does work all things out for our good is all that we really need to understand.
I like how my pastor's wife put it she's not going to go to hell over a mystery.
Just because we do not know everything doesn't mean we can't know enough to know God and walk with Him in a real relationship that will change our lives forever! Forever is a long time and I choose the life that God offers. There is truly none like God and I want all to know Him and His love.
Thanks for this page and for pointing out that you didn't accept Jesus until you realized that we/you are not going to understand everything. That is what faith is to believe without knowing it all and having all the pieces to the puzzle.
Their is not an end to the knowledge of God and man will not ever be God. Voted up,useful, and awesome!!
Very true, and insightful!!!
Well as I was running thro this hub I thought that you may not answer as you started months ago, but down here just the other day. so here I am.
Yes many people do say why does God allow pain and what ever come on us..
Well to go back to the beginning of time you will see that Adam & Eve did live in a perfect world, well at the beginning anyway, until the snake in the grass came to Eve to go and eat from the forbidden fruit, and because it looked so very delicious and that she would have the wisdom of God, now this is where sin comes into the perfect world, now as every one born would be under the cover of sin, because they broke the command of God.
Now as we all know to sin punishment will be on us, its not that God wanted to punish us it was because man had sinned against him, and you will read that God did place a curse on the ground,also you read where they came to ask Jesus why is this man blind did his parents do something wrong, the answer from Jesus was no, you can see that the sin was still here on earth. it will only be taken away at the end of time when God will destroy the world.
Jesus came to show us the way back as man had drifted away from the Father, but the sin will still be here, so when some one becomes ill with anything the sin is being punished not the person and yes some people will die from the illness, but they can receive healing of their hearts.
Jesus has given to us power over our bodies, we can in faith say to our bodies that it is not allowd to become ill, Jesus did say that thro Faith we can move mountains so an Illness is a mountain,
also Jesus said that when we pray from our hearts our desire will be given when we have faith, believe, trust and do not have doubts then we will receive, I know so because everytime when I feel something coming on me I come against that feeling and I do not receive the illness, in other words I obey what Jesus said that we should do when we pray.
Yes JOB went thro much but didn't he believe and trust in God and I'm sure that he never doubted that God would not pull him through what he was receiving, just look at what God gave to him after all that was done to him by satan, he was blessed so much, the devil tries to make us believe that God punishes us because man has sinned, we get punished because we go against the Word of God we disobey Him, God will not put sickness on us. Did God put sickness on Job no, the devil did or he tried to, so God is a loving God sickness comes from the sin in our lives, God gave us a choice in what we do so when we make the wrong choice wrong things happen may be to us or other people suffer.
God loves all
That was very beautifully put. I may have to add your exerpt in my article, I'l definitely mae sure you get credit!
help me, i lost my mohrt 3 wees ago after 3 momthns of tramatic time and after 2 years of devasted illness, how do i cope, i have no stretgth anymore.
Truth is, it takes time. God knows that you are going through heart ache. He uses each and everyone of our moments, to teach us, to direct us, to help us. I often have found comfort in the footprints poem. Know that, even though you may feel alone, scared, and angry, that God has not abandoned you. He will carry you through this hard time. How old are you? Do you have your father? Other significant other? Don't be afraid to lean on them. God wants us to have fellowship with others so that way we can rely on them for strength when we don't feel like we have it ourselves. Your feelings are legitimate and normal, and God knows you are hurting, and he is hurt along with you to watch his lovely child in pain.
Late to the conversation, but well. . .
Just to put my comment into perspective, I believe god exists. I do not believe any single religion has all the answers.
But I agree that suffering has a purpose, though it is easier to see that once you have come through it.
To Natalia, Angela is right. It takes time. I hope this helps. It's a technique I teach. Its simple to imagine, and hard to do.
"I will survive this hour." (or this minute, or this day).
Incorporate that into your prayer, or mediation, or affirmation.
Tell yourself that, yes this is bad. Don't look for the good, or the purpose. Accept that it is bad. Yell, moan, shriek, cry, or just be.
Breathe.
Then tell yourself. "I can survive the next minute." Tell yourself that each minute. Gain strength in the survival. Gain strength in all the minutes you get through. Let them stretch to hours, days, weeks. Soon the bad is not something that has put you down. It is something you have risen through.
We know life ends. This is intended. We know, therefore, the causes of death cannot by themselves be evil, as dying is a necessary end.
I believe that life prepares us for 'something'. That 'something' requires us to understand loss, grief, pain, even if only so that our immortal soul does not reach for things that cause it.
It is why love is so important.
So when suffering comes (it will, it must), coach yourself through it. "I can survive this moment. And then I'll survive the next, and the next, and the next."
It is a worthwhile journey. It will one day cost us our lives.
Small price to pay for what is to come.
cheers
anton of the north, that was very beautifully put. Thanks for your input! :)
I know I responded to this 11 months ago,but I really find this Hub interesting and I enjoy reading the comments of others. One day My brother, who is a pastor, and I were sitting down talking, he told me " I see you as part of my ministry" and I also felt the same way. But I wondered how that would be since his church was more than two hours away from where I lived. I had no plans to move. I worked here and my daughter who needed me the most because she was deaf and losing her eye sight also lived here. As I said earlier my daughter died suddenly and unexpectedly. There was no longer any reason to stay other than my parents and they are well. So I obtained custody of her 4 daughters and decided it was time for a change. We moved. I now attend my brothers church where I am a Sunday School Teacher and Choir Director. We still talk about it. We say we never expected it would be this that would bring me to The First Baptist Church of Georgetown. I always told myself that I couldn't take it if one of my children died before me. But at that moment when I was praying for her life, I said "thine will be done". Even though I miss her very much and still cry sometimes, I was stronger than what I thought. I know God was there for me and the girls, and I know that our lives would not be as close with God if it had not been for her death. So her death was not in vain but bought her family closer and I knew that her purpose here on earth was complete.
I am so sorry for your loss. It seems as if God has really used your pain as a catalyst to bring you closer to him. I'm very sorry, but glad that you have found you have more strength than you ever dreamed you have. Thanks for sharing your story.
Beautiful, Angela_Michelle. Written with clarity and heart.
Could it be that these Homo sapiens bodies are not what is important to God?
With free will, we have the ability to choose salvation or, on the other hand, perpetual separation from God (Hell?). The nature of our sin and our trap is of our own creation. Salvation cannot be forced upon us. And suffering is an integral part of the rebirth process, just as much as labor pains are for a mother's delivery. God cannot remove the pain and keep the rebirth. The suffering is opportunity for the seeds of wisdom to be planted.
So many Christians believe that being a Christian is the only way to be saved. Being Christian is good, but judging others for not being Christian is not... well, not very Christian.
Judge not, lest ye be judged. And so many Christians think they are entitled by the Bible to judge others, and are proud of that fact. That is sad. For they are following the master of this world, ego, rather than our master in Heaven.
We have been told that we need to follow Christ and believe in his name, but what do these really mean?
What if "following Christ" is merely another way of saying doing everything necessary to awaken spiritually (be reborn, walk with God, etc.)? Did Buddha "follow Christ" when he achieved Enlightenment? If we understand the real meaning of this, perhaps he did. And Buddha made it known that a far greater teacher than he would arrive to the West, years later. Was that greater one the Nazarene teacher? Perhaps.
God has given us an abundance of ways to return to Him. The end result is that of awakening to the Lord in all humility and faith in His love.
A beautiful hub with great insight. I came across a book recently where the author preached against a belief in God. He felt that since God couldn't answer the question of why people suffered then God didn't exsist. Of course God does answer if we pay attention. Maybe this person didn't receive the answer he wanted.
lonestar, that was very insightful and compelling. Thank you so much for sharing your great thoughts. I agree with you very much. It is ironic that so many Christians do judge. I thought you put that very delightful.
The idea that , if God doesn't answer, then God doesn't exist is quite the paradox. It's quite sad for this author.
The idea that , if God doesn't answer, then God doesn't exist is quite the paradox. It's quite sad for this author.
Thanks Angela. And the beautiful thing is that God answers every time and instantaneously. Every time! The hard part is that many of us have not yet learned to listen to God, but instead listen to the noise in our own heads, or to ego. Or as Ruffridyer said, we don't receive the answer we think we want.
I wrote a hub on unanswered prayers trying to get the point across that no prayer is ever unanswered. And all too frequently, the one praying does not realize for what they are praying. If they have fear in their hearts, they get more fear. If they have confusion, they get more confusion. This is the nature of our asking. God wants us to shed our fear and confusion and take on utter humility. By doing that we enter pure faith. Then the magic happens. Then one is walking with God.
Lone Star,I haven't yet read your article, but I do know that one of my favorite songs is that song, "Thank God, for Unanswered Prayers." For instance, I am so thankful God did not allow me to get pregnant. My daughter (adopted) is so incredibly important to me, and I am so thankful she is part of my life. Not that a biological child would not have been welcome,but I believe that my daughter was meant to be in our lives.
I find nothing hard about God allowing pain and suffering. Adam and Eve brought that on us through sinning against God. God is Lord of the universe. Most people think they know more than God does. They are deceived and what guage are they using to judge God? No human has ever proven that they know what love is anyway. Most people think love is sex and when you get your way. God determines love and explains it in 1Corinthians 8:1, 13:3-13. People who claim to have so much love divorce one another for no good reason, abandon children, commit adultery, fornication, commit murder. There are child molesters, racism, sexism, discriminaton and many wars going on all over the world. Only God through Lord Jesus Christ has all of the effective correct answers. People are showing their version of love everday in hatred, bullying, lying, stealing and calling evil good and good evil. There is no other name found among men than Lord Jesus Christ that we can be saved by and then we must grow up in our Salvation 1Peter 2:1-2
Very well put. :) Thanks for sharing!
So your entire argument is based on the idea that God defies logic. Great.
If you would like to see counter arguments to everything you have said here, read my hub.
Wow Angela every time I read this hub I know God inspired you to write it!
Philanthropy, thanks. Logicide doesn't lead to that more abundant life whilst the presumptions of naturalism, rationalism and skepticism do.
Fr. Meslier's the problem of Heaven puts the hard grip on all defenses and theodicies.
http://carneades-georgia.hubpages.com reveals why those three presumptions rule.
http://fathermeslieroftoday.hubpages.com reveals why God faced that one-way street and failed abjectly.
That's Carneades-Georgia's Fr. Meslier of Today hub. The edit took to long to be done.
Carneades-Georgia appreciates thoughtful yet rough commments to any of his comments.
Awesome Hub!! Very well said.
Samanthaparker, thank you.
Carneades-Georgia :)
Fr. Meslier's query goes thus: should there be free will and a guarantee not to do wrong in Heaven, why not on Earth in the first place?
For pages, Nelson Pike expatiates in " God and Evil" that we'd be robots had we such a guarantee in effect. Ti's not a hobgoblin of little minds to challenge that :[1] so, Heaven itself has robots so that argument boomerangs on supernaturalists and [2] so, God would be the Supreme Robot!
So, the free will and soul-making arguments and all other defenses and theodicies fail!
Besides, determinism rules so that contra-causal -causeless-free will cannot exist anyway
All scriptures aside, nobody ever has given evidence anyway for Heaven, Hell, the future state and free will as Roy Jackson would maintain!
Jackson " The God of Philosophy."
Thanks for the post. I'm a 16yr old girl just getting into the faith. I guess I have Little House On The Prairie to thank for that :) Gods blessings and work are truly everywhere!
No evidence exists for your comments Angela as the Bible cannot vouch for itself. No, prophecies are nothing.
That feel-good just doesn't cut the ice. Fr. Meslier rules by default then!
Kelli, i was your age when i came to christ
Thank you for your opinion
I was sixteen when I realize that Nature needs no Creator or Sustainer.
Fortunately for me,my schizotypy does not include " The Transcendental Temptation," what Paul Kurtz calls the twin superstitions of the supernatural and the paranormal.
Opinions without facts oppose reality.
Sometimes God allows evil to draw us ti Him. That happened to me.
As for people who have never heard of Jesus, we all inherinately know there is one supreme God and the best way He reveals Himself to us is through nature.
Very good article
God bless you.
So rather trying to answer F. Meslier's question,people prefer to think: those atheists only see evil when we see all the good.No, that won't work,because all that evil happens to real people and the good only means that we have reason to feel good for ourselves,ignoring all that evil does not work!We atheists find thus no God whilst others flock to Him for that very reason: the eyes of faith, thoae weill-trained ones adjusted to obviate the need to answer that question!
I find Yeshua just another cult leader, god-man, and no more unique than the others.And he had a faulty ethic.
Should someone tell you that she'd give you a million dollars if you'd let her chain-say your limbs off is just the same as those miserable, mean-minded misanthropes made up the twaddle about the future state in Heaven!
In the end, aplologists rely on the argument from ignorance: Heaven will make up for all the evils ,so that's a fact when no one ever has proved that Heaven exists, and don't cite your Scriptures ,because those writers just made that up! They gave no evidence but the we just say so of faith!
What rational person would accept the rants of those men?
What is your answer to the question: why not on Earth with free will and a guarantee no to do wrong when the denizens of Heavenaren't robots and God is not the Supreme Robot?
If God can see the future in detail, then morally He has no need for the tests as He already would know the results!
What callousness to evil to even speak of Hell when that adds to the evil? Love and Hell contradict each other, and Hell contradicts morality!
People, faith cannot answer the question but is just an lazy way out!
I'm not bitter but a happy man. I feel the anguish of those who suffer those evils without surrendering to to that over my character but ever noting that evil rings against the very existence of God!
Ti's no hobgoblin of little minds to demand an answer why theists cannot practice consistency in this matter: what is good in Heaven would be good here!
Because, theists prefer faith to reason, they ever rationalize why He permits evil!
In the end, they are that spouse suffering spousal abuse who always excuse the other spouse!
And the divine protection racket adds to evil!
teacher joe I agree with you wholeheartedly. that is very true.
If I'm completely honest I don't understand your question: why not on Earth with free will and a guarantee no to do wrong when the denizens of Heavenaren't robots and God is not the Supreme Robot?
Great Hub!!! It is through our many trials and tribulations that we come to have a personal relationship with our Lord God Almighty. He desires that relationship with all of His children. Once you open the Word of God, you begin to know and understand the character of God. In His Love.
So right. Like your name. :) Thanks for commenting!
To permit evil so as to draw people to Him means a colossal case of narcissism and- low sef-esteem! No being has the right to permit evil for its glory! Shades of Mother Dearest Teresa's love of pain for her poorly- kept patients!
Defences and theodicies all end up mocking humanity and none can ever overcome Fr. Meslier's problem of Heaven!
Why wouldn't God ensure that people on Earth had the same free will as those beings in Heaven and a guarantee not to do wrong? God supposedly can do no wrong, so is He then that Supreme Robot eho cannot choose morally as theists claim that would occur had we free will and that guarantee? This remains no hobgoblin of little minds!
I'll have more on this at a certain blog here.
I think my words may have been twisted. I did not say he permits evil to draw people to Him.
I meant in effect,because He could draw people to Him otherwise, but the Fr.Meslier hub here does proclaim why He has no right to have any dominion over us.Anyway, answer this inquiry about His robot status. Do it at that hub directly and to answer its other questions.
Thank you for your continued responses.
Thanks.
Your welcome
Some apologists maintain that rather than try to explain why the evil, ti's preferable to engage in defeating it to which I heartily agree!That actually evades the problem but it does inpire people to help defeat evil.I try to do so through liberalism and others otherwise but we all can try!
Fr.Meslier welcomes others to argue with him.
The original Carneades asks is it for the pig's greater benefit that people roast her?
What are Carneades?
good hub but I don't agree with all what you said,especially when you said we are born as condumend sinners and how the salvation works.but I agree with some points and I like the example you set.From islamic perception pain a=nd suffering exist in the world.We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.
But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side. Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.
It is also the fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve.
There are more that lead decent life than those who commit crimes. Goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration. Generally trees bear fruits, the flowers bloom, the winds move smoothly.
But then the question is why does Allah allow these exceptions to the rules?
Let us ask this question to understand Allah's ways in His creation. The Quran tells us that good, evil and whatever happens in this world happens by Allah's Will (mashiat Allah). Only Allah knows fully His Will. We finite beings cannot grasp fully His infinite Will and Wisdom. He runs His universe the way He deems fit. The Quran tells us that Allah is Wise and everything that Allah does is right, just, good and fair. We must submit and surrender to His Will. The Quran has not given us all the details about Allah's Will, but it has enlightened us with the guidance that is useful and sufficient for us. There are several points that we should keep in our mind to understand this issue:
1. First of all, Allah did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the evil consequences of their sins and corruption.
2. Allah has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. Allah allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of ones health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that Allah often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations. The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer. Allah says:
(Allah) Most Gracious! It is He Who has taught the Quran. He has created man: He has taught him speech (and Intelligence). The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; and the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), in order that you may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance. It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures."
(Ar-Rahman:1-10)
The way we exceed the measures set by Allah and violate His laws of "cause and effect" is incredible. It is really the mercy of Allah that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does Allah allow suffering, but how much Allah protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence. The Quran says:
"If Allah were to punish people according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His servants."
(Fatir:45)
But sometimes Allah does punish people because of their violations of His laws whether they are physical or moral. The Quran tells us that many nations and communities were destroyed because of their sinful lifestyles:
If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the Peoples before them (with their Prophets), the People of Noah, and Ad and Thamud. Those of Abraham and Lut; and the Companions of the Madyan people; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing! They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built?" (Al-Hajj: 42-45)
3. Suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. Allah allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Even Allah's Prophets and Messengers were made to suffer. Prophet Ayyub is mentioned in the Quran as a Prophet who was very patient. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.
4. Allah sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by Allah. Allah is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith. In a very moving Hadith Qudsi (Divine Hadith) the Prophet, peace be upon him, said:
Allah will say on the Day of Judgment, "O son of Adam, I was sick and you did not visit Me." He will say, "O my Lord, how could I visit You, when you are the Lord of the Worlds?" Allah will say, "Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was sick and you did not visit him? Did you not know that if you had visited him, you would have found Me there?" Allah will say, "O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not." He shall say, "O my Lord, how could I feed you and you are the Lord of the Worlds?" And Allah will say, "Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was in need of food and you did not feed him? Did you not know that if you had fed him, you would have found that to have been for Me?" "O son of Adam, I asked you for water and you did not give Me to drink." The man shall say, "O my Lord, how could I give You water, when You are the Lord of the Worlds?" Allah will say, "My servant so-and-so asked you for water and you did not give him to drink water. Did you not know that if you had given him to drink, you would have found that to have been for Me?"
(Muslim, Hadith no. 4661)
Prophet `Isa (Jesus), peace be upon him, is also reported to have said something similar in the Injeel (Gospel or New Testament of The Bible). (See Matthew 25: 35-45) So to summarize, we can say suffering occurs to teach us that we must adhere to Allah's natural and moral law
Great hub! Most of all, I believe that it is our faith that helps us get thru all the 'unknowns' during our life and the things that we don't understand. That and the acceptance of the fact that some things just can not be understood or explained. Acceptance of the unexplained can be so difficult. I enjoyed the read!
Wow Revengade, thank you so much for your input from a different perspective. I really appreciated your well thought out, interesting comments. Despite our different beliefs, I can tell we agree upon a lot.
twinstimes2, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I do definitely agree with you. I'm so glad I have found comfort in God.
Yes we do.I believe in Jesus not as God or son of God but as great Messenger sent by God .I believe in his miracle birth and all the miracles he did that are mentioned in our Holy Book :QURAN.
Anyway,you have a beautiful wriiting style.Keep going!
Thank you very much for such a sweet comment.
I see you wrote about different topics.That s good! ll try to read them all :)
Thank you revengadown.
if you want to be more wellinformed about christianity and my Islamic perception about it you can come to this hub,it s written by Michel Travis
My contention is that Allah has no right to do anything with us, other than to have put us into a better place in the first place per Fr. Meslier's problem of Heaven @ a carneades-georgia hub. I contend per Lamberth's argument from autonomy that we are free beings owing no other beings any worship at all1 This also knocks down the Sartre-Rand autonomy from autonomy.
Thank you for sharing revengadown. I will have to take a look at it.
Thank you for adding to the conversation Carneades.
Carneades,Allah is GOD,The one who created you and give you mouth to praise Him not to blaspheme Him!
This is an amazing Hub ~ I am so blessed to have come upon it when reviewing one of my own ~ thank you for such a beautiful writing ~ blessings to you:)
Thank you so much for such a great compliment.
Wow, what a lot of comment! Thought provoking Hub. Who ever said life should be easy? As part of the universe and creation, Life is exactly what it is, in all the beauty and confusion. We, as humans are a part of it.
We do the best we can in the circumstances in which we find ourselves. Our spirits are our guides. Our human ness is an aspect of our spirit. Our lives are our experience (whatever that experience is). It's a very good idea to listen to our spirits, (or Higher Power) and do the next right best thing we can, because it makes us feel better, aligns us with our God and probably helps our immediate universe.
Thank you for your awesome input. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
We naturalists find so much unrequited evil, that we perforce musn't believe in God whilst supernaturalists seeing the same evidence seek solace in Him!
And since no evidence appears for His very existence, we naturalists find it so wrong to believe in Him, and for supernaturalists yet to find faith in Him strikes us as just another argument from ignorance, and faith being a begged question anyway, and as Sydney Hook observes, science is knowledge whilst faith begs the question of being knowledge.Doubly begged!
So Fr. Griggs says:" Logic is the bane of theists."
http://fathergriggs.wordpress.com
Alas, without that evil, we naturalists wouldn't be alive as other conditions would have made for other outcomes.
My Fr. Meslier hub details why evil counts against His existence.
Sister This is an awesome hub. Job oh Job the most faithful on the earth. His story is something and GOD has given us so much about His nature in the story of Job You did an amazing job on this writing. It is clear the Holy Spirit of God moves in you. I see many have come over to read. Many do ask why? You have given much clarity. Thank you for a blessed read. Well done good and faithful servant. You are precious indeed. Love ya in Christ Jesus. Your sister.
Thank you for such a sweet response. :)
Sky321 Level 1 Commenter 2 years ago
Great hub! Keep up the faith!